Hello all,

As a someone fairly new to the obsession we all call bonsai I have been following the soil thread with great interest as I begin to get the components I would like to use in the soil mixes for my repotting next spring. I want to start getting the right type and size components, both organic and inorganic. I was curious about the size I should be using for the inorganic soil components that will be used in the mix. Most of my plants that I have now are at least shohin size or larger. I have some Japanese maples, Junipers (nana), pines (japanese black and scots), mugo pine, hinoki cypress, chamycypheris, japanese boxwood, podocarpus, ulmus (chinese and siberian), pomegranete, ficus, carmonophylla, bougainvilla, buttonwood and a serissa. I was thinking of trying to incorporate Akadama into my mixes this coming year and was looking for input from the group. I live in zone 7 on Long Island, New York. Thanks in advance for all your input.

Vinny

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Vinny,

I use mostly 1/8" (3 mm) to 1/3" (8 mm) particles for most of my trees. I
also have a screen at 1/4" (6 mm) and the smaller trees get more of the 3 -
6 mm while the larger ones get more of the 6 - 8 mm. For the really large
trees and bottoms of the larger pots (to just cover the drainage holes) I
also screen at 1/2" (12 mm). Finally, I save the 1/16" (1.5 mm) to 1/8" for
use to root cuttings, soil topping for shows, and as part of the mix for
very small (handful sized) pots.

You can buy special screens, but I buy hardware cloth and make my own.
Window screen (1/16"), 1/8", 1/4", and 1/2" are fairly easy to find at
decent hardware stores and even most of the big box home improvement stores.
The best source I have found for 1/3" is McMaster-Carr (currently page 340)
at http://www.mcmaster.com/. The openings in wire screen are square and a 4
x 4 screen (per inch) has gaps between the wires of 0.203" to 0.215"
depending upon the wire gauge so the maximum size of a spherical particle
that will fit through this is less than 1/4". However, our soil components
not spherical I just go by the nominal size.

Marty

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club [mailto:BONSAI [at] HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of
Vincent Kreyling
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 10:10 AM
To: BONSAI [at] HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: [IBC] soil particles

Hello all,

As a someone fairly new to the obsession we all call bonsai I have been
following the soil thread with great interest as I begin to get the
components I would like to use in the soil mixes for my repotting next
spring. I want to start getting the right type and size components, both
organic and inorganic. I was curious about the size I should be using for
the inorganic soil components that will be used in the mix. Most of my
plants that I have now are at least shohin size or larger. I have some
Japanese maples, Junipers (nana), pines (japanese black and scots), mugo
pine, hinoki cypress, chamycypheris, japanese boxwood, podocarpus, ulmus
(chinese and siberian), pomegranete, ficus, carmonophylla, bougainvilla,
buttonwood and a serissa. I was thinking of trying to incorporate Akadama
into my mixes this coming year and was looking for input from the group. I
live in zone 7 on Long Island, New York. Thanks in advance for all your
input.

Vinny

************************************************************ ****************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++
************************************************************ ****************
****
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST [at] HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

************************************************************ ********************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++
************************************************************ ********************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST [at] HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

Jay mentioned Oil Dri and how some of it turns to mush. I contacted the
company about telling which is the good stuff:

"Steve,

Per your question:

“Many of us bonsai enthusiasts would like to use your products as
potting medium, but have had inconsistent results. As I understand it,
some of your stuff is used for cat litter which will not hold up over
time while other packages work well. Which product should we buy?”

You are correct in that we produce 2 ‘types’ of clay. This Division
manufactures a branded “Oil-Dri Premium” clay as well as a generic
version. Based on your application, you should look for our branded
clay, which is a 100% calcined product. In a nutshell, the
manufacturing process turns the clay into a ground ceramic (calcined)
which will retain it’s granular shape after repeated absorption. Our
non-branded product is a blend with kitty litter, which is a
non-calcined product. In PA you can purchase our 40 lb. branded
product from Pep Boys, Sam’s Club (private label), and Wal-Mart (10#
bag, auto. dept.). If you have any additional questions or difficulty
finding a distributor please call or e-mail me. Thank you for your
interest in our products. Regards,Scott Hamming
Zone Manager
Industrial & Automotive Group
Oil-Dri Corporation of America
(800) 233-1959 ext. 2518"

I was glad to see that the stuff I bought was Premium.

Regards,
Steve



On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Beckenbach,Joseph R wrote:

> I've watched the threads on bonsai soils with interest as I have just
> given a talk on materials for growing bonsai to my local club. Please
> take the following thoughts with the required "grain of salt" as I've
> only been doing bonsai for about 5 years.
>
> First, the only consistent I've found in discussions of bonsai soil is
> that it must be free draining. If it isn't, take it out and start
> over.
>
> Second, the whole subject of soil is so complex with interrelated
> factors that there doesn't seem to be any reasonable possibility that a
> "cook-book" statement of what is bonsai soil is possible. You'll have
> to look over the possibilities and make your best guess as to what soil
> will work for you and your condition. Sorry about that but that
> appears
> to be the facts of bonsai life. Guess, try, correct seems to be the
> only way you can find out. The result of this is that your mistakes
> will not survive. Try to keep is simple and keep records.
>
> Third, since you are experimenting, work with cheap materials. I'm
> still in my "kill a weed" phase so I dig a lot of landscape material
> which I think will have good potential. If I guess wrong, the failure
> goes out with the yard trimmings. The successes will eventually go
> into
> bonsai pots and MAY eventually become something interesting.
>
> Now, bonsai soil materials. I keep screened (mostly) material separate
> and then mix for the specific plant. As a result, I have multiple
> buckets and cans in my potting shed. Here's what I have and why:
>
> Perlite - It's white, ugly and floats. It's also very cheap and holds
> moisture while being fast draining. I use it as part of mixes for
> newly
> collected plants and those still needing much development. In these
> cases, the material works very well. I don't think I'll ever use it in
> a bonsai pot but I can't do without it for collected material which
> will
> be totally bare-rooted when potted into training pots for style
> development. I get it at my local big-box store, Home Depot, although
> possibly obtainable from your nursery supplier in small quantities.
>
> Vermiculite - Pretty much the same as perlite except not so ugly and
> white and doesn't seem to float. Usable for smaller collected material
> and perhaps for very small bonsai and companion plants. Some of these
> smaller pots may actually have vermiculite as a component if I
> anticipate annual re-potting. If the mix seems to break down too fast,
> then I discontinue it for that plant at the next re-pot. Also obtained
> at a big-box store or nursery.
>
> Peat moss (or Moss peat for the European contingent) - Dangerous stuff
> which I only use for acid- and moisture-loving plants, specifically,
> azaleas. It is very fine and I do not sift it but I also only use a
> small amount as a mix component, say 5%-10%. Again, a big-box store or
> nursery purchase.
>
> Now the main stuff:
>
> Baked Clay - This is the Turface, Terragreen, Mule Mix, etc. stuff. It
> drains very well but holds moisture as the water does soak into the
> individual particles. I use it as one of two main, inorganic,
> components. If I have a plant which likes water, then this is the main
> component. I get it at an auto parts store. I go in and ask for a bag
> of "oil-dri". Since Turface (I think, although it might be Terragreen)
> is made by the Oil-Dri Corporation, the stuff is usually the same as
> the
> bakes clay products everyone is recommended. There is one caveat, the
> stuff is also used as kitty litter. Kitty litter is NOT the same,
> although baked clay can be used for kitty litter. How to I tell the
> difference? I screen some (to remove the fines) and put it in a jar of
> water. After a few days, the kitty litter stuff turns to mush,
> suitable
> only for muck on slab plantings. If it hasn't turned to mush in a few
> weeks, then it's baked hard. I have yet to have a bag I've gotten from
> an auto parts store fail this test. Since it is used to soak up oil on
> a garage floor, the usual auto parts store doesn't want it to become
> mush either. If it did, then the garage people couldn't sweep it up
> and
> would not deal with that auto parts store any more. Here is one of the
> "grain of salt" points. I have not been doing this long enough to have
> a pot which has not been re-potted for 5-10 years. Some pines may have
> this long a re-potting schedule.
>
> Pea Gravel - The other inorganic component, screened to eliminate
> anything over 1/4" and fines. I use this where the plant wants dryer
> soil. I always want some moisture holding component, so this is
> usually
> used in conjunction with the baked clay. I get this from my local
> nursery. I check the bag to see that most of the gravel is less than
> 1/4".
>
> Shredded Bark - The organic component. This is the tough one for me.
> I
> use to get bags of "organic soil conditioner" but haven't seen this
> recently. What I'm now doing is to take pine bark mulch and put it
> through a garden shredder. Since this device seems to be hard to come
> by, I can not recommend any replacement. Perhaps your local big box
> store or nursery can order the "organic soil conditioner" for you.
> Good
> luck on this component and let me know what you've found as I'm tired
> of
> shredding bark. Either way, screen the end result.
>
> Now that you've got stuff, mix it in proportion depending on your
> plant's individual needs. I use Naka's book and Herb Gustafson's to
> get
> an initial mix ratio. The books which tell me to use "loam" or 'garden
> soil" are not a big help to me as essentially I'm using a "soil-less"
> mix.
>
> Good luck and have fun - jay
>
> Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a - jbecken [at] ufl.edu
>
>
> ************************************************************ ***********
> *********
> ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++
> ************************************************************ ***********
> *********
>>> -->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/
>>> <<--<<
> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST [at] HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> +++++

************************************************************ ********************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++
************************************************************ ********************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST [at] HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++

Well, not really. What I said was:

"I get it at an auto parts store. I go in and ask for a bag
> of "oil-dri". Since Turface (I think, although it might be
Terragreen)
> is made by the Oil-Dri Corporation, the stuff is usually the same as
> the
> bakes clay products everyone is recommended. There is one caveat, the
> stuff is also used as kitty litter. Kitty litter is NOT the same,
> although baked clay can be used for kitty litter...."

I then went on to give you a simple test to make sure that you got "the
good stuff". Since the auto parts stores may not get their product from
the Oil-dri Corporation, I would strongly recommend doing the test. I
do, every time and regardless of manufacturer. Allow me to add that I
have NEVER had a bag of this stuff fail the test if I got it from an
auto parts store regardless of manufacturer. My original post explains
why. I have also NEVER had a bag of kitty litter from the grocery or
pet store pass this test. Usually the kitty litter fails in a matter of
minutes. I have one jar of the stuff from an auto parts store for over
a year now and it's still good.

Another option is to buy the pre-mixed soil. This costs about $5 per
gallon (plus shipping if you get it off the internet). I get about 15
gallons from two bags and they cost about $10 or about $0.67 per gallon
plus I ship it in the trunk of my car. Your choice. The pre-mixed is
also pre-screened and "portion controlled", i.e. ready to use. Thank
you but I'd rather control what I use on my trees depending on their
stage, specie, etc. and I don't mind the hour or so it takes to screen
the product.

Have fun - jay

Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a - jbecken [at] ufl.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Peterson [mailto:stevenkpeterson [at] MAC.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: soil particles

Jay mentioned Oil Dri and how some of it turns to mush. I contacted the

company about telling which is the good stuff:

"Steve,

Per your question:

"Many of us bonsai enthusiasts would like to use your products as
potting medium, but have had inconsistent results. As I understand it,
some of your stuff is used for cat litter which will not hold up over
time while other packages work well. Which product should we buy?"

You are correct in that we produce 2 'types' of clay. This Division
manufactures a branded "Oil-Dri Premium" clay as well as a generic
version. Based on your application, you should look for our branded
clay, which is a 100% calcined product. In a nutshell, the
manufacturing process turns the clay into a ground ceramic (calcined)
which will retain it's granular shape after repeated absorption. Our
non-branded product is a blend with kitty litter, which is a
non-calcined product. In PA you can purchase our 40 lb. branded
product from Pep Boys, Sam's Club (private label), and Wal-Mart (10#
bag, auto. dept.). If you have any additional questions or difficulty
finding a distributor please call or e-mail me. Thank you for your
interest in our products. Regards,Scott Hamming
Zone Manager
Industrial & Automotive Group
Oil-Dri Corporation of America
(800) 233-1959 ext. 2518"

I was glad to see that the stuff I bought was Premium.

Regards,
Steve



On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Beckenbach,Joseph R wrote:

> I've watched the threads on bonsai soils with interest as I have just
> given a talk on materials for growing bonsai to my local club. Please
> take the following thoughts with the required "grain of salt" as I've
> only been doing bonsai for about 5 years.
>
> First, the only consistent I've found in discussions of bonsai soil is
> that it must be free draining. If it isn't, take it out and start
> over.
>
> Second, the whole subject of soil is so complex with interrelated
> factors that there doesn't seem to be any reasonable possibility that
a
> "cook-book" statement of what is bonsai soil is possible. You'll have
> to look over the possibilities and make your best guess as to what
soil
> will work for you and your condition. Sorry about that but that
> appears
> to be the facts of bonsai life. Guess, try, correct seems to be the
> only way you can find out. The result of this is that your mistakes
> will not survive. Try to keep is simple and keep records.
>
> Third, since you are experimenting, work with cheap materials. I'm
> still in my "kill a weed" phase so I dig a lot of landscape material
> which I think will have good potential. If I guess wrong, the failure
> goes out with the yard trimmings. The successes will eventually go
> into
> bonsai pots and MAY eventually become something interesting.
>
> Now, bonsai soil materials. I keep screened (mostly) material
separate
> and then mix for the specific plant. As a result, I have multiple
> buckets and cans in my potting shed. Here's what I have and why:
>
> Perlite - It's white, ugly and floats. It's also very cheap and holds
> moisture while being fast draining. I use it as part of mixes for
> newly
> collected plants and those still needing much development. In these
> cases, the material works very well. I don't think I'll ever use it
in
> a bonsai pot but I can't do without it for collected material which
> will
> be totally bare-rooted when potted into training pots for style
> development. I get it at my local big-box store, Home Depot, although
> possibly obtainable from your nursery supplier in small quantities.
>
> Vermiculite - Pretty much the same as perlite except not so ugly and
> white and doesn't seem to float. Usable for smaller collected
material
> and perhaps for very small bonsai and companion plants. Some of these
> smaller pots may actually have vermiculite as a component if I
> anticipate annual re-potting. If the mix seems to break down too
fast,
> then I discontinue it for that plant at the next re-pot. Also
obtained
> at a big-box store or nursery.
>
> Peat moss (or Moss peat for the European contingent) - Dangerous stuff
> which I only use for acid- and moisture-loving plants, specifically,
> azaleas. It is very fine and I do not sift it but I also only use a
> small amount as a mix component, say 5%-10%. Again, a big-box store
or
> nursery purchase.
>
> Now the main stuff:
>
> Baked Clay - This is the Turface, Terragreen, Mule Mix, etc. stuff.
It
> drains very well but holds moisture as the water does soak into the
> individual particles. I use it as one of two main, inorganic,
> components. If I have a plant which likes water, then this is the
main
> component. I get it at an auto parts store. I go in and ask for a
bag
> of "oil-dri". Since Turface (I think, although it might be
Terragreen)
> is made by the Oil-Dri Corporation, the stuff is usually the same as
> the
> bakes clay products everyone is recommended. There is one caveat, the
> stuff is also used as kitty litter. Kitty litter is NOT the same,
> although baked clay can be used for kitty litter. How to I tell the
> difference? I screen some (to remove the fines) and put it in a jar
of
> water. After a few days, the kitty litter stuff turns to mush,
> suitable
> only for muck on slab plantings. If it hasn't turned to mush in a few
> weeks, then it's baked hard. I have yet to have a bag I've gotten
from
> an auto parts store fail this test. Since it is used to soak up oil
on
> a garage floor, the usual auto parts store doesn't want it to become
> mush either. If it did, then the garage people couldn't sweep it up
> and
> would not deal with that auto parts store any more. Here is one of
the
> "grain of salt" points. I have not been doing this long enough to
have
> a pot which has not been re-potted for 5-10 years. Some pines may
have
> this long a re-potting schedule.
>
> Pea Gravel - The other inorganic component, screened to eliminate
> anything over 1/4" and fines. I use this where the plant wants dryer
> soil. I always want some moisture holding component, so this is
> usually
> used in conjunction with the baked clay. I get this from my local
> nursery. I check the bag to see that most of the gravel is less than
> 1/4".
>
> Shredded Bark - The organic component. This is the tough one for me.

> I
> use to get bags of "organic soil conditioner" but haven't seen this
> recently. What I'm now doing is to take pine bark mulch and put it
> through a garden shredder. Since this device seems to be hard to come
> by, I can not recommend any replacement. Perhaps your local big box
> store or nursery can order the "organic soil conditioner" for you.
> Good
> luck on this component and let me know what you've found as I'm tired

> of
> shredding bark. Either way, screen the end result.
>
> Now that you've got stuff, mix it in proportion depending on your
> plant's individual needs. I use Naka's book and Herb Gustafson's to
> get
> an initial mix ratio. The books which tell me to use "loam" or
'garden
> soil" are not a big help to me as essentially I'm using a "soil-less"
> mix.
>
> Good luck and have fun - jay
>
> Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a - jbecken [at] ufl.edu
>
>
>
************************************************************ ***********
> *********
> ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++
>
************************************************************ ***********
> *********
>>> -->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/
>>> <<--<<
> +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST [at] HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> +++++

************************************************************ ************
********
++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++
************************************************************ ************
********
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/
<<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST [at] HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
+++++

************************************************************ ********************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++
************************************************************ ********************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail BONSAI-REQUEST [at] HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM +++++